Episode Description:
In this episode, host Elizabeth Ledoux once again talks with Andrea Carpenter about the intricacies of business succession and the metamorphosis that both owners and successors undergo during a business transition. Tap or click the play button below to listen to: The Character & Role Shifts in a Transition.
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They explore the roles of the “magician” owner and the “apprentice” successor, emphasizing the importance of curiosity, communication, and strategic planning.
The conversation highlights the challenges and rewards of transitioning leadership, offering practical advice for maintaining healthy relationships and clear expectations.
Join our free 90-minute “metamorphosis” workshop for family business owners, successors, and advisors, “From Complexity to Clarity: Navigating Your Family Business Transition Journey”: https://transitionstrategists.co/workshop
Connect with Elizabeth Ledoux, Andrea Carpenter, and the Transition Strategists:
Website: https://transitionstrategists.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thetransitionstrategists
Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethledoux/
Andrea on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreashaver
Transition Strategists on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/transitionstrategists/
Transition Strategists on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@transitionstrategists
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Get Elizabeth Ledoux and Laura Chiesman latest book, “It’s A Journey: The MUST-HAVE Roadmap to Successful Succession Planning”: https://amzn.to/3oq2LQv
Chapters in this episode:
0:01 Business succession and transition, with a focus on character and role changes for owners and successors.
8:09 Leadership transition and communication.
15:20 Leadership transition and the roles of the owner/leader and watcher/advisor.
21:05 Challenges of succession planning in family businesses.
25:15 Business transition planning for successors and owners.
This episode was produced by Story On Media & Marketing: https://www.successwithstories.com.
The Character & Role Shifts in a Transition Transcript
Elizabeth Ledoux: I think if you walk in, and I think if you hit something head on like, hey, this isn’t working for us, and we’re not doing well and blah, blah, blah, right? This isn’t working. I think you end up with some resistance. But I think if you walk in with again, that concept of curiosity, Curiosity is, it’s an incredible tool that a lot of us don’t use very often. And if I was a successor, and I was going to walk in and ask my owner leader, I might say, you know, what this business mean, means a lot to me. And I know it means a lot to you, and I want to be the best successor that I can be. And sometimes I feel like I’m working in a vacuum. And I think that, you know, we’re not aligned at times. And so, you know, what would you think about just being curious and exploring, coming up with some kind of a strategy for us to walk through the next three to five years together? Welcome to the Business Transition Roadmap. My name is Elizabeth Ledoux. And through my years, I have seen how communities thrive. When business succession and transition are done. Well, me and my team at the Transition Strategists have been helping business owners develop and implement transition strategies for over 30 years. And on this show, we want to help you by giving you the roadmap to a healthy business transition. Let’s get started. Welcome, everybody, back to our podcast today. I am so thrilled, thrilled, again, to have my potential partner, Andrea Carpenter on with me where our journey is continuing to unfold and blossom. And just it’s so exciting. So Andrea, thanks for being here. Again, I appreciate you so much.
Andrea Carpenter: Yeah, always glad to be here.
Elizabeth Ledoux: Sounds good. So today, Andrea, and I have been working on this workshop, that we it’s just a online kind of workshop that we’re doing. And it’s called metamorphosis. And we put together some of some key things that a transitioner goes through to more from being the owner, founder leader to being, what they’re going to be beyond and what that looks like. So there’s a metamorphosis that takes place there. Then there’s also a metamorphosis that takes place from being a successor to coming into that, then owner, right leader role that happens. So with that today, one of our what we would do is just walk you through two of the components of that metamorphosis. First one is going to be character. So what character are you playing in these different roles. And then the second one we’re going to talk about is the role. So we’ll start with the business owner, and ended the character segment, the business owner, leader, founder at times, we think of them as a magician. So if you can think of a magician on stage, doing the tricks making it all happen, and it’s just illusionary how they’re able to do this. It’s magical. So we call them the magician. And that’s really this entrepreneur that’s on their journey. And what they’re able to do is they’re able to really jump on stage any time and magically take what would be a challenge, and turn it into momentum going forward. So what other people see as got a roadblock or something like that a big challenge, these owners are able to just turn it into movement forward, keep people moving forward, they discover the challenges, and then they engage in making things happen. And this is super rewarding for them. It’s super rewarding. And it’s a part of their DNA, part of what creates the fulfillment for them. I don’t know, Andrea, if you want to add to that.
Andrea Carpenter: Yeah, I think just to be that person, like you’re the star kind of when you own the business and you’re running it, you’re leading it, the team looks up to you. That’s just kind of the reality of where you are when you’re the leader in the business. And so now we’ll kind of talk about it like as the successor thinks about moving into that and as you as an owner, think about transitioning out of that, what does that kind of look like? Which I think is just it’s kind of interesting shift because you don’t get to be in the spotlight forever. Part of the reality of of exiting a business is that eventually that that goes away, which which can be a really hard transition. And that takes us back to the the metamorphosis theme. Right? You’re, you’re kind of coming out on the other side, something different.
Elizabeth Ledoux: Yeah, absolutely. So pretend you’re the magician. And so we all, if you’re an owner, you’ve been in that role, and maybe for quite some time, the next stage, the metamorphosis to what we’re calling beyond, because beyond says that, because you’re gonna go through so many different wins, right, so many different transitions as an owner, you may choose to go through some role transition inside of the business, so maybe CEO, the chairman of the board, or something like that. So you’re letting go of some of the day to day activities, taking on some of the more futuristic strategic activities. So that could be part of your beyond. The other thing that you might be doing is pondering or even be in the middle of a transaction, which could be gifting to a family member, or it could even be, you know, selling, but you’re, you’re working towards transacting and reducing your level of ownership. So getting out of that investment side also. And so we call that beyond, because we want you to be able to, yeah, whatever your beyond is, is what it’s going to look like and whatever is going to keep you happy. So in beyond what happens in your character, is you’re guiding the successor, so your successor has started coming into the owner leader role. And your your real character that you’re going to play is that is your guiding, you’re just a guide. So you’re guiding them on their journey, you’re asking powerful questions, you’re helping them to discover what they don’t know. And you’re helping them to see challenges that you would see instantly, but they don’t. And you really want them to move forward and gain their own forward momentum, so that they can live this route, this wonderful, rewarding life that you’ve been doing for so long, and they’re able to take it on. Without you. It’s an exciting time. And like D’Andrea said it’s can be a bittersweet time. So and one last thing, you know, as you as you grow older, and you get all of this wisdom and knowledge. There’s what they call there, there’s like this functional knowledge that you have when you first start the business. 70 are functionally making it work and go. And then what happens is, it turns into what they call crystallized knowledge. And crystallized knowledge is the knowledge that you’re using in the beyond stage. And your successor is developing and using their functional knowledge. So those two things married together, create what is now the next magic for this business.
Andrea Carpenter: I don’t know because where we’re at in our journey, you’re still firmly business owner leader role. But as we start to talk about me coming in, and you ponder this beyond any, like, in more depth, like how is it sitting? How is it feeling? Are there tension points? Are there things that are feeling exciting? Just like what’s sort of your reaction when you think of yourself as the character
Elizabeth Ledoux: was me as the character? Yeah, I’ve been? You know, it’s, it’s interesting, because there’s a lot of self development, I think that has to take place. And really noticing and being open, first of all, to new things, I will tell you that because of you, Andrea, I have learned more new technology than in the last, like six months than I had learned in a long time. So as long as I was open to new things, then it’s fun. If I’m not open to new things, it’s kind of like, Oh, my goodness, not so sure about that. And so I’ve been enjoying it, but it is there are times when I catch myself kind of going, ooh, that would be something I like or I want to do or Ooh, that is not quite the way I would do it. And when I do that, luckily, I think I’m getting better at catching myself. In the beginning, I probably wasn’t you can tell me if I was if it was hard, but I found it. I’m getting better at catching myself and I’m being I think I’m getting better at being open to just seeing what’s possible.
Andrea Carpenter: Yeah, and I’m happy to share my perspective too once we talked about the successors transition. So should we give a brief overview? Yeah, Before we we jump. Yeah, definitely. So let’s talk about the successors transition then into kind of the leader. And we call this kind of The Apprentice. So you think of the successor as the apprentice to the magician. They want to be the entrepreneurial magician. But also they recognize that they’re their own unique person. And I think this is a really fascinating thing about the apprentice, because you would apprentice a magician, and you would be talking with them, and you will be learning their tricks. But also you have your own flair, you have your own kind of way, your own vision, your own passion. And so you start to see how you can fit in to the larger picture. But you’re still not the one. So there can be feelings of anxiousness, you’re feeling ready to go, you have like kind of this excitement, but also you recognize your place that you’re still learning. And then there’s kind of this big learning curve on the transition to becoming a leader. Any thing to add on on that transition metamorphosis from successor to leader? You know, well, it’s
Elizabeth Ledoux: kind of it’s interesting, because I think this successor walks, they walk a couple of really interesting lines. One is being the apprentice, you can imagine the learning curve is sometimes ridiculous. You’re expected to do so much and such a little amount of time. And a while you’re expected to do a lot and step in and, and really engage, you’re also walking a very, very fine line of overstepping your bounds. Right? Because you’re hoping that you know what, you know, and you also don’t know what you don’t know. And it is tough. It is just a tough roll that approach roll.
Andrea Carpenter: Yeah. And I was, that is pretty much been my experience. It’s this, this fine. Like you mentioned the technology thing. So that I have I have some conviction. And oh, this is something that has worked well for me in the past, like I could see how it could fit here. But also what’s the historical knowledge or the reason or the decision behind why it was implemented in this way in the first place. And sometimes you have to catch yourself, you have to stop, you have to pause, you have to ask good questions. All of these are are part of of growing as a leader growing as a successor to really try to understand the landscape. And the longer you do it, the more confident you feel in your brain, maybe in reality, that’s not the truth, or that’s not the way things are actually going. And at least, or maybe your your business owner or your your current leader doesn’t feel that way. And so keeping I think as much of an open dialogue as possible about where things are working, where things aren’t, where there’s opportunities to focus, and kind of who is owning what and who, who is doing each type of thing is super, super critical, which I guess will kind of segue us into a little bit of talking about the role, the roles that we play within the business for each of these things. But for me, in my experience, like if we don’t have that clear communication, and I’m not 100% sure what I’m supposed to be working on. Also asking questions like, do you want me to take ownership of this? Is this my decision is something I’m going to run by you, and we’re going to sign off on together? That can be really, really helpful to navigating beginning to think about what it looks like to officially step up into that leadership role.
Elizabeth Ledoux: Yeah, yeah. Well said, Yeah. And as I think, hopefully, you’re seeing in our podcasts and our conversation, how important it is to have conversation, and communication. And I just literally got off of a meeting with a client that she’s been a client of mine for probably eight or nine years now. And we were just talking about this fun model about starting with curiosity, then having the conversation and making a conclusion. It’s so easy. When we’re busy, right? The successors learning at a high, high, high level trying to keep all the balls in the air. The business owners trying to move into the beyond stage of being the guide and learning new things. And yeah, new things in the business and also new behaviors. And it’s so easy to not communicate, because not only you’re just there’s more on your plate when you’re going through this process, then less as a business still requires both people in it. And then on top of it, you just layer this right on top and it’s like oh yeah, we got this and then And it’s so who are you? I haven’t talked in a month. But you really the communication needs to go up. And also the openness needs to go up. But there really aren’t any secrets of goods Bad’s uglies. All of it is available. And I think it is what makes it successful.
Andrea Carpenter: Yeah. And you mentioned earlier than many wins. And I’ll spell that for people who are just listening, W H, E, N S, sounds like wins. Sometimes they are wins, you’re like, like a wi ns, you’re like, yes, that was a win that we got through that. But the many wins W, H, E and S, that is really, to have them documented and to know when certain transitions are happening, which is so helpful as a successor like, okay, around October, this is probably going to happen around January, I anticipate this is going to happen, Elizabeth’s going to take this role, Andrea is going to take this role. Things can always change. That’s the point that that’s why the communication is so important. But to have things mapped out on a high level, just wanted to share that with those who are kind of the current leaders that it has been really transformational for me to be able to, to know when these things are hitting so I can prepare and be a better partner, as we begin to navigate. So if you’re a successor listening, that could be something that you could start to ask for or tried to plot out. If that’s a tool that would would help you. Again, it’s about that communication. So create some type of framework if you need that, to help facilitate the conversations, at least to start because sometimes it is hard to just walk in an empty room and say, Okay, what are we doing? What’s our problem? What are we? What are we solving out? So framing it around some milestones or things that you’re working towards? And what expectations that are for each one can be really helpful? Yeah, absolutely.
Elizabeth Ledoux: And, you know, thank you for bringing that up, Andrea, because that, that timeline, it’s very, very helpful also, for the person who’s the transitioner. Time flies, it’s amazing how quickly things go. And again, with a full plate, you know, where do you find time for these? These conversations? Where do you find time for getting documents done? Where do you find time for making sure you’re hitting the milestones and not just running completely past them, and two or three years goes by, then usually, you end up with a successor who’s pretty frustrated. And you’re pretty frustrated, too, which then will lead us into the role and keep the role is second one. So I’ll start with the owner, leader, the owner leader, they’re the business owner, you know, very clearly the leader, the the driver and the doer. So we call them the driver doer, they have daily influence in moving the business forward. And the funny thing about it is that you’re moving at your own pace, as that owner, in a privately held company, you are in so much control. So you move at your own pace with your own high engagement. And if you decide to take a month off, hopefully the business runs while you come back. And then you become that driver Doer again, and things start to happen. Like, again, magic. You do what you need and what you choose, you can hire your team around you, so that it works for you. And then you just operate the business with yourself and that team that you enjoy. Hopefully, that’s the business owner leader. When we switch to the beyond, then what happens is, instead of being the driver doer, you’re becoming the watcher advisor. So you’re watching and advising. A couple things that you need in your role is you have to have the ability to let go. You have to be able to watch your successor find their own feet, their own foundation, and increase their their momentum. So you’re watching them find where they are, and then increasing as their momentum as they gain this confidence and they gain a direction that they’re confident in. So the ultimate thing is they do what they need to and they choose what they’re going to do and they choose the team around them so that they can go build their vision of the business. And notice it’s not you doing what you need and you doing what you choose to do. And you having your team but they’re actually replacing you and they’re building the vision. Hopefully without you and while you watch and advise and become their safe harbor and I I’ll just say this one thing, Andrea, and then we’ll go on to the successor. But the other day, I had a great client. And we were talking about his kids. We’re talking about the kids. And, and you know, these kids are mid 40s. So the kids are out there. And I noticed, because of the work that we’re doing that the kids are like, Hey, we’re not gonna tell mom and dad about that right? There. It’s inside the business. We’re not right. But that’s just our thing we can get through this ourselves. And so noticing that the kids aren’t seeing the parents as a safe harbor. So when you watch, when you become the watcher advisor, there’s a shift that takes place where there’s less judgment, and more mentorship, where they can come with their biggest problems and their smallest and really say, gosh, you know, I need some help, instead of, I’ll figure this out on my own, because it’s not going to go well, if I share.
Andrea Carpenter: Yeah, an interesting segue into the the owner and I do want to come back and touch on that that point of perception of an owner or parents looking at their kids in the way that they’re stepping into this new role, because they think when you think about the role, and you think about the successor, most likely they have a full time job that they’re already doing. Inside the business in some capacity. Maybe they’re on the marketing side, maybe they’re on the sales side, maybe they’re helping in a financial capacity. It’s different in every family, it depends how many successors Do you potentially have? Is there only one are there multiple, so lots of different things here that could could play into this, but successors have their own role. And they’re starting to think about what it looks like to become an owner, but someone else is sitting squarely in that owners seat right now. And you see the way that they’re doing it. And you begin to at least in the back of your mind, for me, you’re starting to evaluate, like, what would it look like? If I was in that leadership role? What would I change? What would I do, and at the end of the day, you’re trying to do your own job, you’re, you know that the like, once the transition starts, it’s going to be one of the hardest things, but potentially one of the most rewarding things that you ever get to personally do. And you’re working really hard to do whatever it takes. But also, it’s not yours yet, you don’t know the exact timeline, you know, it still belongs to someone else. And I feel like sometimes as a successor, you pump the brakes a little bit. And you’re like, I just need to put I have to put a boundary around this to protect myself because some of this is outside of my control. And I’m curious, Elizabeth, because you have worked with a lot of businesses, sometimes I hear owners say, Well, my kids are in the business, but they just don’t have the motivation, or they just don’t work as hard as I’m going to work. I don’t know if they’re cut out for this. And for me, sometimes in responses to success, or I want to say, Well, if the path isn’t clear, like why am I gonna give 180% to this thing? If I don’t know if it’s gonna work out? That’s like, it’s putting a lot of me on the line in this situation. I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that? Oh, I
Elizabeth Ledoux: think you said that very well, because there’s a lot of emotion that goes in the end of this. And yeah, I think that the I think owners are many times wanting to have their successors step up. And then if the successor does step up, sometimes they squash them, because it’s too much, or they don’t know what they’re doing. Or, you know, there’s a lot of judgment that goes on. And I think that goes back to the idea of being curious than having conversations and then making the conclusion that curiosity says, Wow, maybe they’re doing more than instead of instead of like, well, they’re not working hard enough. They’re not at the office early, they don’t leave last last. You know, they’re not here for everybody, blah, blah, blah, because that is common. It could be they’re available all the time via phone. And they’re available, basically 24/7 Anytime anybody needs them, they’re there. And life has changed. There is work from home there is virtual. There is there are so many different choices, that people actually are able, sometimes successors are actually able to get more done because of the way they work and the way they see things. So yeah, it’s the ice. We see that all the time in our work. This miss, it’s basically a miscommunication. It’s not reality. It’s a miscommunication between how people are working thinking and how they’re being perceived.
Andrea Carpenter: And so we come full circle, it’s all about just how we communicate with each other set clear expectations, share what everyone is thinking and feeling. But I think there were some really important points in there. And really the beyond for the business owner, and the leader is that letting go, which is letting go of the expectations of what the successor is going to do, which can feel scary, that we had a business dinner last week, he’s like, why I’m gonna let them do their thing, but they still have to be able to pay me back. And like, things have to continue working moving forward, and you have to like, eventually, there’s a point where you have to say, I’m gonna let it go, I’m gonna trust that you’re gonna be able to do this, and then that’s gonna move forward. And that is a big leap of faith. And I guess that brings us back to our theme of that metamorphosis, because it really is this whole transformation of self around these concepts. Absolutely.
Elizabeth Ledoux: Well, and you know, that makes me think about the idea of a timeline, the work, the work is around, putting people first, and then it’s a journey. This is a journey, you don’t wake up one, or we hope you don’t wake up one day, and you’re not the business owner. And you’re be you’re in the beyond stage. And you’re just like, Oh, what happened? Right? How did I end up here, and especially in a, in a transition with somebody that you know, or one of your children, it’s so important to be able to strategize and to give yourself some time to walk through this, you’ll end up being happier, more fulfilled. And by taking it as a journey. You’re beyond stage, as an owner leader, you still can watch after the business, you still can create safety within the business, you just do it from a different role or a different character. And it helps, it helps your successor and it helps you as long as you keep the relationship healthy, which means more communication, not less.
Andrea Carpenter: And I guess one thing to help our successors like, what advice would you give a successor? If they’re thinking about this? If they’re hearing this conversation, they’re like, Okay, maybe we can build a timeline, maybe we should open communication more. We have had successors come to us. And eventually the whole business comes in and, and works on their transition journey planning together. What advice do you have for a successor around starting that conversation?
Elizabeth Ledoux: Well, thanks for asking that question. And I think the most important thing is relationship. I think if you walk in, and I think if you hit something head on, like, hey, this isn’t working for us, and we’re not doing well and blah, blah, blah, right? This isn’t working. I think you end up with some resistance. But I think if you walk in with again, that concept of curiosity, Curiosity is a, it’s an incredible tool that a lot of us don’t use very often, because we think it makes us feel or seem weak. Think that, you know, it does curiosity. It does, it makes you seem sometimes a little bit weak. But the funny thing about it is, it’s probably one of the most powerful tools you have in your toolbox to use. And if I was a successor, and I was going to walk in and ask my owner leader, I might say, You know what this business mean? means a lot to me. And I know it means a lot to you, and I want to be the best successor that I can be. And sometimes I feel like I’m working in a vacuum. And I think that, you know, we’re not aligned at times. And so you know, what would you think about just being curious and exploring, coming up with some kind of a strategy for us to walk through the next three to five years together? It’s an invitation. And I think those three to five years, it posts some curiosity in the owners mind to say, what would that be like if we did that? Because then you can do it together. And I think that’s beautiful. Yeah.
Andrea Carpenter: So with that, I think that’s a nice segue into kind of our offer, we see that this is so important. So whether you’re a successor, and you want to attend by yourself, or you’re a business owner, you want to attend by yourself, or maybe you’re an advisor who’s helping clients navigate beginning conversations like this. If you feel like you need a few more tools or talking points, or you want to kind of learn about all the other angles and parts of the metamorphosis, we’re offering one free workshop every month, it’s 90 minutes, you can register at transitionstrategists.com forward slash workshop. And really, what we are so excited about in this is it’s a pure learning opportunity. You can come together if you just if you need a space to begin to start are having conversations between yourself and your successor or if you’re the successor you and your, your business leader, we’d be happy to support you in those workshops we went through to today, but there are six different kinds of metamorphosis that we have, that we can discuss in our workshop. We also talked about our transition compass some of the essential questions, really, that would give you the beginning of groundwork of what it looks like to collaborate and begin to work on that three to five year plan, eventually leading to more of a concrete timeline. So we would love to see anyone there that this this might serve. So yeah, that’s our plug.
Elizabeth Ledoux: Andrea, thank you. This is so much fun to be here and to have these conversations and both of both Andrea and I think I can speak for her, we are hoping that you’ll be able to take this information and make a difference for you and your successor or transitioner. And, you know, ultimately the business and the community that it serves. So thanks for being here. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Business Transition Roadmap. If you are listening to this and you find yourself wanting to go deeper into these topics and start the process of putting together your transition strategy. I’d love to offer you a free initial strategy session with my team, where we’ll help you to explore the future transition of your business, head over to www.transitionstrategists.com to schedule a call. Thank you again for listening, and I’ll see you on the next episode of the Business Transition Roadmap.
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The Business Transition Roadmap with Elizabeth Ledoux
How do communities thrive? When businesses experience healthy growth and transition. Join CEO of The Transition Strategists, Elizabeth Ledoux as she and her guests identify what makes a successful business transition roadmap. If you know you want to transition or exit your business “one day”, today is the right day to start planning. This show will give you the roadmap.
If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, you can check out other episodes here: Podcasts – The Transition Strategists
