Stop Assuming They All Want It: Getting Clear on ‘The Who’

They share how honest conversations about readiness, desire, and alignment help families move from assumption to shared understanding—and how even uncomfortable truth can bring freedom when it’s named with empathy. 

Whether you’re the current owner, the rising generation, or somewhere in between, this episode will help you see that “The Who” is not just about roles—it’s about relationship, purpose, and legacy. 

What You’ll Hear in This Episode: 

• Why “The Who” is the emotional heartbeat of transition planning 

• How to separate ownership from leadership—and why that distinction matters 

• What to do when no one (or everyone) wants to be next 

• How Transition Guides help families talk about readiness and calling 

• Real-world stories of clarity, relief, and breakthrough moments 

• The surprising gift of hearing, “Maybe it’s not me—and that’s okay” 

Chapters in this episode:

00:00 Introduction to “The Who” on the Transition Compass 
01:35 Why the People Question Is the Hardest One 
04:25 Founders’ Fears: Letting Go of the Reins 
08:10 Successor Assumptions and Honest Conversations 
11:45 When Ownership and Leadership Aren’t the Same 
16:50 Real Client Stories: Relief in Naming the Truth 
21:15 The Role of a Guide in Surfacing Readiness 
25:30 The Emotional Shift from Control to Collaboration 
30:05 How to Begin Exploring Your “Who” as a Family 
34:20 Key Takeaways & Where to Learn More 

Connect with Elizabeth Ledoux and the Transition Strategists: 

Website: https://transitionstrategists.com/ 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thetransitionstrategists 
Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethledoux/ 
Transition Strategists on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/transitionstrategists/ 
Transition Strategists on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@transitionstrategists 

Connect with Debbie and Marcy on LinkedIn: 

Marcy McNeal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcy-mcneal/ 

Deborah Davies:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/changeagent-coach-facilitator-deborah-davis-ms-pcc/  

Subscribe to “The Business Transition Roadmap with Elizabeth Ledoux” on your favorite podcast player: 

Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3MxSYA2 
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3IhMMux 

Get Elizabeth Ledoux and Laura Chiesman’s latest book, “It’s A Journey: The MUST-HAVE Roadmap to Successful Succession Planning”: https://amzn.to/3oq2LQv

 

Stop Assuming They All Want It: Getting Clear on ‘The Who’ Transcript

Marcy McNeal: Welcome back, and it’s wonderful to be with Debbie Davis again. Some of you may have watched our last podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. We had a lot of fun, and we’re really excited about this conversation today. My name is Marci McNeal, and I’m a guide and strategist with The Transition Strategists. I’ve been doing that for almost 4 years. Working with Elizabeth on our really wonderful, wonderful guide community. And yeah, I’m just excited to, to dig into some of our tools and our process, as we discussed today. Do you want to say hello, Debbie?

Deborah Davis: I would love to say hello, good afternoon, good morning, wherever you’re calling in from. I’m Debbie Davis, I’m also a guide with the Transition Strategist. And just happy to be here, happy to dig into the conversations with everybody. I have been with the transition strategist a little over 4 years, so right around the same time you came in, RC, and love the work we do, love the opportunity to share nuggets with anybody that is interested and in need.

Marcy McNeal: Yeah. Absolutely.

Marcy McNeal: You know, I’ve actually… I was thinking about this last night when I was kind of envisioning what we were going to talk about, Debbie, and I was… I really enjoyed our conversation last time about focusing on the compass, and the power of that particular tool. And, you know, we… we… our last conversation was about the why. You know, what is it that is… what are the objectives that a business owner and a family would have for doing any kind of a transition? And I’ve been thinking about how closely linked that is to the who. And I thought maybe I’d see if you would be up for a conversation today about the WHO, which is a very specific component of our compass. And, one that I find really fascinating as business owners really start to look at and develop a plan around their transition, and one that can be really exciting, one that can be fraught with all kinds of limited thinking, and blind spots, and that kind of thing, so I thought it might be kind of fun for us to dig into that. What do you think?

Deborah Davis: Thank you for asking. So… I will talk about anything with you all day long, because I love our conversation, so thank you for asking. The who, as part of the Compass, is intriguing to me and exciting to me for a couple reasons. I think about the Compass. The Compass is a tool that is one of my favorites. It asks some very critical questions. It asks about to your point, the why, and the who that we’re going to discuss, but also what owners are transitioning, when they’re transitioning it, how they’re transitioning, and how much they’ll be transitioning. And those questions, all of them are really critical as they try to define the direction that they’re going to go. And that’s honestly why the compass is so important to me. You know, we initially talked to owners who want to just execute and make a, you know, how do we get this done? And… we first need to take them back to what direction are you going? What are the critical things that are so very important? And those questions, those six questions that are part of our compass do such a good job of that. And to your point, the who can really get in the way if it’s not clear, and it can really get in the way if it feels clear, but there are hurdles that prevent you from making what feels like the right decision, and I think it makes great sense to talk about that, to normalize the conversation that owners really struggle with this, even if they have a successor they’ve talked about for years, and so it’s a really great, I think a great topic, and I think it’s going to be a healthy one to dig into and ask questions around. One of the questions that, I started jotting down some things, the limiting beliefs you mentioned, I think, is a really, interesting component, because as I wrote down questions, I’m like. Oh, that would be so full of… Nuggets, in terms of trying to understand what are the limiting beliefs behind, perhaps, who’s capable. actually stumbled on that one a couple of weeks ago, so love to hear where your head’s at around that.

Marcy McNeal: Well, that phrase you used of who’s capable is… so… I mean, you… we could swim in that one for an entire conversation, because that, you know, I have found in… in the… with the businesses that I have supported and worked with and guided through their transitions, that right away. it’s… it’s a… it’s a very… it’s a tricky question, because it’s… it’s… what are you actually asking? Who’s capable to do what I do? as the owner, as the founder, as the business owner, entrepreneur, or who’s capable to actually run the company and move it forward. Those are two different things!

Deborah Davis: Absolutely.

Marcy McNeal: very different things, and yet it’s really… it’s understandable how someone would get stuck in the first one. Who can be the next me?

Deborah Davis: Yep.

Marcy McNeal: But the next meet, it may not be what the business needs.

Deborah Davis: Hmm…

Marcy McNeal: And that’s… and then you… and then you, you know, there’s that friction with the identity. Right? You know, that a business owner has. Well, of course they need to be the next me, because I’m the one that got it here this way successfully. This is how, you know, I’ve done all the work. And, of course, what they need next to go further and to thrive and grow or whatever, or even just survive, is another me. And so, it’s a… it’s a really, it’s a… it’s a very… It takes someone who’s really willing to separate the identity and ego of what does the business need, and be like… and be comfortable with considering that it might not be someone like them.

Deborah Davis: Right, and with the element of not having someone like them, it might be someone that is actually causes friction within the relationship between the two, the owner and the potential successor. It might be somebody that they are at odds with, and they don’t, perhaps, get along. And that… that belief that I can’t even get along with him, why would I ever, or her, why would I ever want to have that person in this place? And it’s like, wait a minute. why don’t I get along with that person? Is it because they are oppositional, or… Or is it deeper than that? What is it? What is behind all that?

Marcy McNeal: And the substance, the substance of the not getting along, is it… is it about that they don’t have the capacity, they lack the skills, they lack the training, the experience, whatever it is? Which, those are all things that you can navigate. You know, if it’s something about the relationship itself, you still can be navigated, but you’re going to navigate it in a very different way.

Deborah Davis: Right.

Marcy McNeal: You probably haven’t met.

Deborah Davis: Oh my god.

Marcy McNeal: Yeah, yeah.

Marcy McNeal: Absolutely.

Deborah Davis: very deep subject. I worked with a group a couple of weeks ago, and, and the owner You know, is very strong, very leader… is a strong leader, and great… person has great relationships with all of his people. But when he started thinking about some of the things that would change that are very different than him.

Deborah Davis: You know, it, it, to your point, it… there is ego attached, and you’ve… he felt it, and he called himself out and said, you know, I’m… this is… hopefully, I haven’t done anything horribly wrong, and the direction you go is great, but hopefully you’re benefiting from the work that I’ve done, and you are happy with the work that I’ve done, and I can still contribute. And so it’s… it’s… I think.

Marcy McNeal: As they wrestle with who.

Deborah Davis: And then the change, or potential change that comes with the who, to your point, there are…

Deborah Davis: It is hard for the owner to let go and detach from how meaningful that is to them and the significance of who they are, and a… approach it in a healthy perspective, as objectively as they possibly can. What is in the best interest of the business?

Deborah Davis: But then also, I think they wrestle with… going forward, they all, I mean, I don’t know about you, but all of the owners that I’ve worked with all want to contribute going forward in some capacity.

Deborah Davis: And when they let go of the idea of, this is what I brought to the table, this is who I am, and somebody else has a different set of skills, different vision for the company, not that it’s disregard… that vision is disregarding of the legacy, but it’s… It’s a… it’s a shift…. Fitting into that new… under that new leadership.

Deborah Davis: Oh, it is a whole new world for them, and it can be challenging.

Marcy McNeal: Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, for someone to really step into and embrace and be comfortable in that space, they have to be clearly committed to something bigger than themselves, which hopefully is the success of the business, is the success of the transition, is the crafting, the teaching and mentoring of that next person or persons, and not about, you know, not kind of getting caught up in the, how I’m feeling about this in this moment kind of thing. And then the resistance can come in. So it does, you know, I think that that’s a huge thing — being committed to something bigger than, like you said, what you… what they brought to the table, where they got the company to in this moment in time. And knowing that there’s something really, really great beyond that that they can support and be a part of. And they’re not gonna be the ones necessarily driving that.

Deborah Davis: Which is really hard. You know, it makes me think of, I think capable and ready can be two different things.

Marcy McNeal: Vary.

Deborah Davis: That makes, as you say that, is who’s… who’s capable of carrying the legacy on. And what that looks like could be a little bit different. It could be a shift in the way that the initial owner did it. But then I think also is that the other thing that the owners… I hear a lot, and I’m sure you do too, our owners are so worried about, but they’re not ready, and sometimes they can’t even see the potential. They might be that vision of how to get there. There aren’t a lot of details, so they can’t imagine it having a progression. And so if they’re not ready right now, it can cause some major hurdles for them, and some limitations in terms of who they consider. I’m curious, do you have any stories that come to mind when you think about… Yeah, they’re capable, but they’re just… I don’t know, they’re charming, they don’t have the… whatever.

Marcy McNeal: Well, you know, it’s… it’s interesting. I can think of one family that I… they’re a former client, doing really well, and… but really having to go through that conversation of… and that exploration of… There’s two potential… well, there’s… there’s three… successors, two in the business. And those two have very different sets of skills and personalities and interests. And as they are, neither are ready. Together, they’re capable. Individually, neither of them is what the owner and the founder is. And the struggle, the struggle, but… but there’s… there’s this… I think there’s this incredible generosity when a transition, a business transition owner is looking at it and saying, okay, I’m really open to a whole different… a whole different way of this looking. Like, they’re… like, maybe it’s gonna take two people to… do what I did. Because I’ve been doing this for 40 years, and I can do it in my sleep. And neither of them are understandably at that level, and may never be. May never be. But maybe collectively, you have something really magical. And really being… being willing to explore what that could look like. Because I do think there’s such an interesting distinction between when someone is kind of stuck on… it has to be one person, there is going to be one successor. And they better figure out how to do everything that I’ve known… I’ve learned how to do, versus they’re… maybe they’re never… they don’t want to learn about this part over here, but they could still be a really, really great leader, and could we just get somebody else to do that part over there? Do they have to know how to do that? And, you know, so it’s that… it’s that challenging that thinking, that limited thinking of, well, it’s gotta be one person. If it’s not one person, then there’s something wrong here. It’s like… No, people are gonna come, like you said, they’re gonna come to the table with their own skills and interests and capabilities. And… Let’s work with that. Let’s not force the outcome, and have someone potentially fail? Or just be com- be really unhappy? Right? I don’t think anybody wants… I don’t think any owner, especially in a family situation, would want that to be the case. And so, I do think just that the ready and capable are… to… to me, are so… such empowering. They create such an empowering conversation.

Deborah Davis: Because you can… it’s not, because it’s not yes or no.

Marcy McNeal: It gives you the space to say, oh, yeah, you’re ready there, there, and there. Oh, and you’re capable there, there, and there. Let’s figure out how we can get those all to come together in whatever time frame, 2, 3 years, 5 years, whatever it is. Create the plan, and then work it, so that you get them ready.

Marcy McNeal: So, but yeah, there’s that one family, and then it’s interesting, I’m working with a client right now with a really fantastic business, and… it’s not a family business, and I love that he has identified 3 potential successors. And they all have their own thing that they bring. And the richness of that in creating a partnership, which can also have a lot of other tentacles and challenges in its own.

Deborah Davis: On its own, but…

Marcy McNeal: Just the openness to… these three people, he’s confident can do it. They would have to figure out who does what inside of that partnership, but just that there’s a real openness to, to really create it. To create it in a way that makes sense for everyone, and builds upon their strengths.

Deborah Davis: It’s funny that you said that. I love the word open, because that’s where my head went when we were talking about that. Do you find that owners typically come in with an idea, and it’s very… it’s pretty set, or do you find that your owners come in not sure at all.

Marcy McNeal: I mean, it’s such a continuum. I think I’ve worked with people every single step of that continuum along the way. And I do feel that the ones who, in my experience, the ones who really have that sort of predetermined how this is going to look struggle the most.

Deborah Davis: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Marcy McNeal: Struggle the most with letting go of that, right? Because, you know, that’s… that’s… an unmet expectation, which is where, as human beings, the vast majority of our upset in life comes from, is when we had an expectation, it didn’t get met. So they’ve created one. They’ve created an expectation, they’ve kind of gotten attached to it. And it’s hard to let go. I mean, that’s just… that’s normal for any human being in just about any scenario, but imagine it being, who’s gonna be the one to run my business after me?

Deborah Davis: Yeah.

Marcy McNeal: That the stakes… are high, and they feel high, so… So, yes.

Deborah Davis: I feel like there’s also… I wonder… where my head was going was that a lot of them, they’re problem solvers, right? Owners are problem solvers. So they’re either coming to us with a solution, or they’re frustrated because they don’t have one.

Marcy McNeal: Is what it feels like.

Deborah Davis: And… that said, I think that… there’s a level of openness that is involved in that, both scenarios, and… what I have… what I have found is even those who are set, even those who are… they think they know. That strong, confident no shifts over time, and it… and they become… I mean, that’s potentially why they’re there, they’re struggling, and they become… a little more… to your point, open and curious, and maybe it’s a combination of what we do, right? We’re asking a lot of questions when we’re sitting in there as a guide. We’re helping them navigate and challenging their beliefs, so for sure, that’s… there’s an element of that, but I think that… that openness and curiosity evolves over time.

Marcy McNeal: No.

Deborah Davis: So even if they do know of here, they eventually actually get to considering other alternatives, and to your point, creating…

Deborah Davis: I love that word that you used, open and creative. They get to the point where they’re open, and they start creating the best scenario for them. And it isn’t textbook theory scenario, it isn’t… it isn’t maybe perhaps what they had in mind initially, but they are willing to go…

Deborah Davis: Okay, let’s make this ours. Let’s build this for us. And to your point, each successor then, once you create the plan, each successor might have a different plan. Someone might have a higher acumen in this area, and they will travel less over there, and more over in another area, and…

Deborah Davis: Creating that safe place for the successors to be, I think, is really… it’s really a great opportunity for our owners to step into. And…

Deborah Davis: And it’s a dance. Yeah. I had an owner, just this call before, he used… he said, I have to put my ballerina shoes on, and dance with my folks, and… and I think it’s true. It’s like, we have to… they have to… learn to step in, and as do we. And I prefer hiking shoes, not ballerina, but okay.

Marcy McNeal: If you want to climb the mountain.

Deborah Davis: Yeah, I have them together, so it’s fun.

Marcy McNeal: Yeah.

Deborah Davis: It’s an opportunity to create some really great relationships that are lasting. And I… I feel like… you know, to me, a success is when you’re navigating the who, if we can create the safe place for everybody to step into that and explore and discover, create the plan, and explore and discover together.

Deborah Davis: It’s an opportunity to… to do exactly, a lot of times, what the owner wishes for. It’s letting go of certain things, handing over to people he knows and trusts and wants to carry the legacy forward, and then also building those relationships that will be there for him when… as… or her, as they navigate out of the company.

Marcy McNeal: Yeah, I love that, and I think, you know, creating the space is one of the things, as guides, we get to do. It’s a privilege to get to do it.

Marcy McNeal: You know, it’s almost like we could flip this conversation for a moment onto its head and say, what is the experience of determining the who from the successor perspective?

Deborah Davis: Oh, yeah.

Marcy McNeal: Where does their voice come in? And…

Marcy McNeal: And how are they feeling included or not included, excluded, right, from the conversation of what they want?

Marcy McNeal: And again, why we do that objectives matrix where everyone gets to talk about what they want from a transition, and that, I think, really helps pave the way for the successor’s voice to come into now these next conversations.

Marcy McNeal: That a business owner and a, you know, that’s transitioning would be very tempted to say, I’m going to figure this out, I’m going to decide, and everyone’s just going to do the plan that I come up with, and yet…

Marcy McNeal: You know, there… you know, we have… you and I have both heard and experienced many stories of…

Marcy McNeal: You know, a business owner.

Marcy McNeal: Making assumptions about what their successor can and can’t do, will and won’t do, wants or doesn’t want to do, and… and how… and creating that conversation of, let’s challenge those assumptions.

Marcy McNeal: And the best way to do that is to bring all those voices in, because let’s hear. Let’s hear what your successor, or potential successor, or successors, are really how they see it.

Deborah Davis: Yeah.

Marcy McNeal: How they see it. And, you know, it’s… so it’s interesting. It’s… it’s a really… it’s a really dynamic conversation when you have potential successors at the table. We don’t always get that.

Marcy McNeal: You know, sometimes there’s a lot of work that we have that we do with business owners around the transition and the who with just them.

Marcy McNeal: And we help them challenge their own assumptions. But when you have that other voice there, it really brings more richness to the exploration and to the discovery.

Marcy McNeal: So, you know, I think that… and I… and I can think of a client that I’m… that I work with currently who…

Marcy McNeal: And so it was sort of predetermined. It’s a family transition, so it was like, this is… it’s gonna be this or nothing. We’ll see… or we’ll sell it to someone else, and, you know, the kids will get it in our estate, they’ll get the, you know, the rewards and all of that.

Marcy McNeal: But knowing that the way the successors in this particular scenario want to move the business forward is very confronting to the founders and what they have built, and facing that what they have built is not going to survive into the future. It has to change.

Marcy McNeal: And that’s a tough thing to wrestle with. And then how would my son or daughter know how to do that, right? You know, and how they’ve never run a business at all. How are they going to know how to move it forward and change it the way it needs to be changed if I don’t see it that it needs to change, kind of.

Deborah Davis: I’m sorry.

Marcy McNeal: Absolutely.

Marcy McNeal: So, yeah.

Deborah Davis: I love that you say, and bring the voices in.

Deborah Davis: Because… And it’s very rich. It’s also very emotional.

Deborah Davis: It can be very, it can… it can… we can go into places that can trigger people. We can go into places that create opportunity that wasn’t there before. I mean, I’ve seen owners and successors sit at the table, and…

Deborah Davis: They uncover things that they didn’t know was there, either skill sets, or things that have been done that nobody knew about, or just this increase of information. So I think… I mean, I look at owners who insist on just waiting until they have everything set before they bring their successors in, versus those who bring their successors in.

Deborah Davis: And I think there’s… there’s, I think, an argument for both, and I don’t think one is right or wrong.

Marcy McNeal: Yep.

Deborah Davis: I think they both have a place, and it’s fine. But I think when you do have the successors in there, a couple things come to mind.

Deborah Davis: It is a place where it’s very dynamic. The conversations are really dynamic, and uncovering things is a normal thing, and it’s okay. And giving our permission to… I love our people-first value, and we have fun when we’re in those meetings, and we’re going to step into the uncomfortable instead of hide from it. And so we celebrate those things.

Deborah Davis: And then two, I think not… Not, I, I love… going into those places without a preconceived notion of what it’s gonna look like.

Marcy McNeal: And really wanting to be…

Deborah Davis: Open and discovering, or exploring, and…

Marcy McNeal: Learning.

Marcy McNeal: And it’s a beautiful place to be.

Marcy McNeal: Oh, I was going to ask you a quick question, if I could, Debbie, because I think you have had some experience in this area.

Marcy McNeal: Because the who sometimes also brings up issues of the quality and fairness, especially in a family business, where you might have some people in the business, you might have some people outside, or you have a whole bunch of them in the business, but they’re working at completely different levels, and different ages, and the different investment of time and years that they might have put in. And…

Marcy McNeal: I do think that there are… I mean, and I definitely have worked with several owners who that is sort of like a pothole in the dark. They don’t even know that they’re gonna… they’re gonna fall into it, or they know they are, and they just don’t want to… they just don’t want to go forward, because they don’t want to… they don’t want to address it. So, what have you seen? I’d love to hear if you’ve got thoughts that are even examples of how clients have navigated that.

Deborah Davis: Yeah, I think that’s a really great question. So, where my head went initially was… I always go back to, it’s a journey.

Deborah Davis: And so equity and fairness, they might have a vision for what that looks like, but at the end of the day, it is a journey, and that’s… that’s the common thread that I’ve seen, and that is… owners… the ones that I have worked with… owners have approached the equity and fairness in terms of either… let’s talk about gifting, or percentage of shares if they’re transitioning. So gifting, fairness. That I’ve seen has been equal, equitable shares, right? Everybody, or that gifting piece has been fair, and I’ve never seen anybody gift 100%. So I’ll say that.

Marcy McNeal: Hmm.

Deborah Davis: Now then the partnership looks a little bit different. And what that looks like that I’ve seen, is that happens over time. And typically, what I’ve seen is, and we have to state it up front, is that the owner is paying attention and seeing who’s stepping in and how are they stepping in to be the next majority owner. And so… and again, as long as they’re transparent, it looks a little bit, you know, it is… I think a healthy conversation to say, you know, we’re going to be watching over a period of time to say this is what it is.

Deborah Davis: The other side of that, I can think of an owner that I know of that is just transitioning to one person specifically, and has made the decision to, here is my successor, here is the majority shareholder, and this is what it is going to look like.

Deborah Davis: Any of those, though, is a heavy, heavy, heavy decision, and usually, especially in the work that we do, because we don’t typically navigate a transaction, we’re navigating a transition. But at the end of the day, it’s a journey, and it takes place over time, and it could be a percentage of shares in the first year, a smaller percentage building up over time. Until at some point, I mean, the big milestone is obviously when you pass over that threshold of the, the original owner doesn’t have the majority shares.

Deborah Davis: Any of those, though, is a heavy, heavy, heavy decision, and usually, especially in the work that we do, because we don’t typically navigate a transaction, we’re navigating a transition. But at the end of the day, it’s a journey, and it takes place over time, and it could be a percentage of shares in the first year, a smaller percentage building up over time. Until at some point, I mean, the big milestone is obviously when you pass over that threshold of the, the original owner doesn’t have the majority shares.

SCHEDULE A COMPLIMENTARY CONSULTATION

The Business Transition Roadmap with Elizabeth Ledoux

How do communities thrive? When businesses experience healthy growth and transition. Join CEO of The Transition Strategists, Elizabeth Ledoux as she and her guests identify what makes a successful business transition roadmap. If you know you want to transition or exit your business “one day”, today is the right day to start planning. This show will give you the roadmap.

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, you can check out other episodes here: Podcasts – The Transition Strategistsa